Podcast

John Hammond: 

When you can, yeah, try for that long-term engagement, partnership, multiple campaigns, or multiple influencers so that you can cast a wide net. And the creator, the influencer has what I tend to say a lot of at bat opportunities because again, yeah, the content piece algorithm, whatever social media black box might not be a win and that’s okay.  So we can try it again.

Peter Jacobs: 

Welcome to Lay of the Brand, where we talk with the experts on tech marketing, creative, and PR to learn what’s new, what’s working, and what’s next. I’m Peter Jacobs with Merritt Group. Continuing our two-part series on cybersecurity influencer marketing and PR, last time we talked about getting started with influencer marketing and how to find the right influencers for your campaign goals. Now we’re uncovering how to measure, maximize, and maintain an influencer program that actually gives you the results you’re looking for.

Once again, I’m talking with Michelle Schafer, a Merritt Group partner who heads the agency’s security practice. Robin Campbell-Burt, the CEO of a Merritt Group’s global PR agency partner, Code Red Communications, and John Hammond, principal security researcher at Huntress and content creator and founder of Just Hacking Training, and also one of the top influencers in cybersecurity. Let’s pick up from where we left off.

Can you give me some examples of influencer marketing working or not working?

John Hammond:

Ooh, I have some wild and fun success stories, I think, but maybe it’ll be no surprise to everyone. Maybe it will be a surprise. I don’t know, but we’ve seen posts, promos, material and content that’s partnered and sponsored together, just, Hey, hit a home run and go crazy viral when there’s a giveaway, when there’s a little prize, when there’s a little reward, when there’s the fun of, Hey, share with your friend or repost to enter the raffle or some things that get a little bit more buzz. It’s wild. know, I don’t know what’s, what’s the temperature on likes or engagement on different platforms, but like LinkedIn, could see like this weird obnoxious, like 6,000 likes, 6,000 engagements, crazy things because folks wanted to be part of that community, that buzz, that fun. And then yeah, it is going to, Hey, lead to a new opportunity for that business and that prospect and quick interaction, quick engagement with their solution, with their product, with a giveaway, with something fun to let them, hey, work with it. Those, think have been awesome, great success stories when you can tap into that in the right way for that community partnership.

Peter Jacobs: 

Michelle, any examples to share?

Michelle Schafer:

Sure. We have done some influencer engagements at Merritt Group and they’ve all looked a little bit different. So couple of years ago, we had a mobile security client that wanted to put together kind of an influencer webinar. We were able to pull in a reporter who of course, cannot be paid,  but a well-known reporter friend of ours who happily did the webinar.

And then one of our speakers actually is a top influencer, well known in the mobile security market. And she did  want to be paid for it. So, and then we also had, you know, a couple of SMEs from the client side. So it was just, you know, again, a one-off engagement, but a way to pull in an individual that already has, you know, a huge following and that kind of brand awareness. So that’s one example. 

A couple of years before that, we did an influencer predictions campaign for a former client of ours. And basically the way we did it was pretty creative. It was right around the holidays. We picked seven or eight influencers, went out to them and said, hey, we’d love to get your cyber predictions for next year. instead of paying you money, we’re going to go ahead and do a $500 charity contribution to the charity of your choice. And all of them said, yes, they were all excited to do it. They knew it was for a good cause and we were able to leverage that content you know, from a PR perspective, getting it out and pitching it to the media, but also just, you know, allowing those influencers to feel, you know, really kind of highlighted in the media, but also again, community give back. So, and then both Robin and I helped one of our joint clients just at RSA this year on kind of an influencer  panel, breakfast media panel that we did out at RSA. So that was really great. We pulled in a couple of influencers to be paid for on the panel, but then a few influencers were in the room watching it, so it was really great.

Robin Campbell-Burt:

Yeah I’ve got three simple examples. One would be a client has a recent funding announcement, obviously do the usual, it’s announced to the media and everything else. It’s a short sharp announcement you want to get out the door and then you just get say three or four influencers, you have a social media post pretty much on LinkedIn and it goes out on their newsletter. Very, very clear, short message, simple project. The second, you can think about one of the things, this is a real eye opener to me when it was first suggested, but in the same way you can look at your finance directors or marketing directors or work CMOs, CFOs on a fractional basis, you could start thinking about an influencer almost as a fractional evangelist for your organization.

And can then use, okay, how do we work with this person over a six month or a year period and deploy them events on trade show floors, webinars and so on and so forth without having to hire them as a full-time person. that’s the second option. So you’re looking at a of a longer term operation there. And the third one I would say is you’re publishing a white paper, ebook going out, thought leadership, threat intelligence report, something like that. Get the influencer to do their own analysis of the report, get their take on it, you’ve got their credibility going over the top of it, and then that’s just shot straight out to their subscribers. So you’re get much more cut through than if you’re just gonna release that report yourself.

Michelle Schafer: 

Yeah, Robin, you just reminded me of another influencer campaign we did for another client, which was more about product and technology validation. We pulled in somebody very well known to basically take their  solution, throw all of the malware and threats that they could edit to help develop a report, which then became a big campaign. did kind of a white paper with the report. We did a PR push around it. had that influencer slash researcher come out to Black Hat, they did a talk on it together. So we really looked full scope at how to maximize that engagement with that influencer to help validate their technology.

Robin Campbell-Burt:

That’s a really good point to build on because we look at there’s two parts to working with an influencer. One is the content creation, the collaboration with them and obviously, know, working with people like John, your content then goes through his channels. The second part is, well, how do you integrate that with you as an organization? is that, are you doing your own email campaigns pointing people towards the content that you’ve collaborated with? Do you have…

You’ll work with the influencer from the center on your website next to the demo flick switch. know if you’re looking at live, if you do a live demo then is that really easy to find as part of the encouragement for then the person to click on book a demo or to engage with that. So that’s a really important component to work with influencers actually. How do you integrate this and get the maximum ROI by building into your own marketing channels and marketing campaign?

Peter Jacobs:

All right, so let’s talk about something that is near and dear to any marketer or PR professional’s heart, and that’s measurement. There’s gotta be ROI on this or why do it, of course. So from the two perspectives, from the brand’s point of view and by extension the agency’s point of view, and from the influencer’s point of view, how do you measure success? John, kick us off.

John Hammond: 

Well, man, I feel bad. I always have to put the little asterisk or star and, the disclaimer where sometimes they’re mileage meter and all, but you’re wrestling with, with online content, with social media, right? With stuff is swayed by the algorithm and whatever air quotes or fluffy kind of thing where we don’t always know what, yeah, you put something into the black box, but what will come out? What will land? What will be well received?

So there’s a lot of variables, but I think through and through, yeah, you’re totally on the money and that, hey, it boils down to the metrics, the analytics, the stats. How many folks saw this piece of content or the impressions, the engagements, the view, the click through, the conversion rate, et cetera, et cetera, all the things. That is really part of anything and everything that we can do, whether again, that’s something on social media, whether that’s a video, whether that’s a webinar, podcast, newsletter, et cetera.

Every single time there’s some deliverable or something out the door. We want to be getting that reporting back. and I will again say, Hey, sometimes that’s not the priority. Maybe sometimes that’s not the goal for the company or business. It’s really cool. Honestly, when folks tend to say, look, we just want to get the word out. We, we just want to  showcase this for the public. Cause we think it’s really cool and those are good things that that is again, really likened and well received within, the markets in the audience. 

Peter Jacobs: 

So it’s not always about, saw this, I interacted with it, and then I did something after that. Sometimes it’s just, I saw this, I interacted with it.

John Hammond:

Totally. And I know that maybe that’s a hard pill to swallow. I don’t know, but it’s like your call to action can be wildly different for what you want. That’s one of the coolest things with influencer marketing and all this, right? Is it, what’s the call to action really look like? But I am cognizant and really thinking that there are a lot of people now in the equation. You’ve got the brand, you’ve got the influencer and you’ve got the all audience receiving this. So trying to keep everybody happy and all that process, it’s still a good thing to do.

Michelle Schafer:

Yeah, I can jump in here. Just I read a recent report. It was from LinkedIn. They did a survey of about 3000 marketers and 94 % of global B2B marketers said that influencer marketing is among the most effective strategies for driving direct sales. And I don’t think the numbers lie here. I think it’s true when you think about the click through rates, the UTMs, the promo codes that you can track. Same report, two thirds or 63 % said that their marketing strategy is incomplete without influencer and creator partnerships. So I really, keep looking at these reports and I think it’s echoing what we’re seeing in cyber. And I think it’s just, has to be part of your recipe for success.

Robin Campbell-Burt:

I was going to come in on something here. I don’t know quite who said this. I did not say this originally, I think the fact is that this person said that half of your marketing budget is being wasted. The difficulty is that you don’t know which half. you know, direct attribution to any particular channel or technique.

Especially in B2B, when you think of the length of the sales process that happens, it’s not an immediate buy. So what is the thing you’re doing in marketing that actually tips them over the edge towards it? It’s a combination of things. So I think there’s always difficulty in having a direct attribution to particular marketing activity that we have to bear in mind. And I think for those looking for influencers to be the silver bullet thing, finally we have a way to directly attribute sales revenue to a marketing channel, it’s not going to happen. I think we have to bear that in mind. I think like John and Michelle have been saying, we measure it in similar ways to how we measure other types of marketing. So it’s click through rate, it’s conversion, it’s are they going to a particular landing page following that conversation? What I always advise clients is they should be doing aided and under aided brand awareness surveys to the market going direct to what end users actually think about your organization, rather a lot of the proxy measurements that we use in marketing and PR today as well. But I just think it’s a no brainer, having said all of this, it is a no brainer that working with an influencer, you’re getting that direct cut through. you have a system working with an influencer where you have over a 50 % open rate on the content that they’re sending their audiences, you know that’s getting through and it’s going to have a much bigger effect than if you were just sending out content that’s unlooked for and unwanted.

John Hammond:

May I dance with this for one last bit? cause I did want to sprinkle in like, look, we, we’ve seen this really, really work. Like we’ve seen this win. We’ve seen this be an absolute success and grand slam. And that’s like one of the most exciting and enthralling things. Like when again, creator influencer and branding company come together and be like, Hey, that worked. That was awesome. We found like a real gold mine here and we want to do more. We want to keep up this long-term partnership. And I keep falling down on that word partner and partnership, but like that’s really what I want it to be. And I think it should be because when we win, like when I win for,  yeah, content piece goes viral, really lands and does some great numbers. Hey, that means that they win. And when they win, I win. It’s so, so cool to see it be a success. But I’m really glad a lot of the conversation we’ve already been having here is like, yeah, try it, do it. And you’ll see when it wins, it’ll win.

Peter Jacobs:

Well, let’s follow that thread and talk about how in-house marketers and PR teams can maximize results and also how influencers can help maximize results. Should you work with more than one influencer? Should you be focused on certain channels in a campaign as opposed to the other?  obviously, A-B testing can tell you a lot right there.  What kinds of content should you be developing?

I’m going to throw all that out to the team here and hopefully somebody will figure it out for me.

John Hammond

Well, obviously, hey, there was a wide array and little buffet assortment that you had there, but I don’t, I can’t give the, yeah, the a thousand percent accurate, certain precise and correct answer all the time and it varies again. But one trend that I think that does really stick out and would be the takeaway that offer here is when you can, yeah, try for that long-term engagement, partnership, multiple campaigns, or multiple influencers so that you can cast a wide net. And the creator, the influencer has what I tend to say a lot of at bat opportunities because again, yeah, the content piece algorithm, whatever social media black box might not be a win and that’s okay.  So we can try it again.

And then you get more exposure, you get more folks being able to catch, another opportunity, another placement for you, your company and your brand. And another one could really be a winner and you get to do it again and then again. keep that long-term, again, reminder exposure and give the creator more and more opportunities to hit a home run.

 Michelle Schafer: 

I think it all really starts with understanding your goals upfront. I have had conversations with clients where they’re like,  know, influencer marketing sounds cool. You know, Meritt Group, what do know about it? But then I ask them, okay, here’s what it is, but what are your goals? What are you trying to accomplish? And when they can’t answer that, I feel like maybe they’re not ready.

Or maybe they just need more of an understanding of the ROI and the benefits of a creator partnership. So there still is to some extent, some education that’s happening amongst marketers that think it sounds cool, but they just aren’t sure where to start. And I think it’s us going back and asking the tough questions. If you do this, what do you want to accomplish? Are you trying to increase brand awareness? Are you a startup that nobody knows about? You know, do you have a technology that needs validation?

It’s really asking those tough questions upfront as the agency to understand what the goals are of the program. And then from there, we can put together influencers that would align with the campaign and would be a great creator brand fit, and then try it out.

Robin Campbell-Burt:

I’d have two things I’d mention. One is to prioritize expertise over reach. So it’s not about just how many likes and followers and those numbers that matter that they have a part to play. It’s actually, is this expert actually in tune with what, who you are as a company, what is the tool that you’re trying to go to market with and also the people that will use this tool. I think prioritize expertise over reach. I think the second thing would be to have the mantra of collaborate, don’t control. An influencer is not just a channel for you to go, right, here’s the…

Here’s the ebook, here are the key messages, we’re going to bang. And you want that influence to have your voice. The value is that the influencer has their own voice and you have to collaborate with that and just treat them with that level of respect in order for that to come through.

Peter Jacobs:

All right, I will torture a sports metaphor. Here’s our last at bats. Thank you. Thank you very much. What’s the one thing that you would want a marketer or PR pro to remember about being successful with influencer marketing? Robin?

Robin Campbell-Burt:

I think it’s that it’s about the relationship and it’s about a long-term partnership. I think that’s the most important thing. it’s, you know, influences, fit, once you have the right ones, they, they’ve already got the following. They’ve proven that what they say carries weight in the industry and I’ve got a lot of people, people who engage with them. So actually I think play the long game with them and build a relationship with them in order for you to get, to become as credible with the target audience you want to reach.

Peter Jacobs:

Michelle?

Michelle Schafer 

Get your budgets ready, my friends, because you’re gonna need it.  And I joke, but I’m actually kind of serious because, you know, I’m recommending to our clients, get 20,000-ish, if you have more great, ready per quarter for creator partnerships and engagements. And again, every influencer has their own media kit, their own pricing. You know, some of them may come in as low as 4,000 for a campaign. Some of them may go up as high as 15,000 or 20,000, depending on what you want to do. you know, prepare for, you know, if you don’t have it now, prepare for next year as budgeting season will be upon us in Q3, so get those dollars ready. Because I do think, you know, you should try this out. I think it’s a great way to drive the leads, you know, that kind of marketing flow that you’re looking for and just really build your brand in other ways.

Robin Campbell-Burt:

I think I’m going to come in again in a because it’s going to trigger me, Michelle, in a good way. I think the budgets are really important but it’s actually don’t just think you’re going to sign that check over and then go right that’s it done. The influencer is going to come back with all the goods and it’s going to be job done.

You have to be partnering the whole journey with them, thinking about how this content is going to play out. What are the questions you could have in a podcast like this? And actually, how do you want to answer the questions? Because you might want to do a cut and paste of that short clip on your video on broader marketing. So you need to be thinking it all through to the nth degree and what’s going on. And if you can’t do that, or don’t have the resource in your own in-house team, that’s when wonderful people like Michelle and perhaps myself can come in to provide that support.

Peter Jacobs: 

And John, your perspective.

John Hammond: 

Well, it’s, funny. I was thinking, I know you gave me an inch Peter and I’ll take a mile. Cause I was thinking, I wonder, I have two points, but then I’m really glad Robin already swooped in to grab another.  the last couple of things that I, I try to squeeze in,  I’m really, really glad that Michelle and Robin were already discussing. Look, it’s not always about the subscriber size or the subscriber count or that total audience that maybe an influencer has. And the reason that I harp on that is because while the, yeah, sheer and influencer online clout tends to vary, whether it’s a hundred followers or subscribers or thousands or millions, right? When you look at that number, even if it’s something like a hundred, that might really map to a conference or trade show or live event that you as a business and company might already be attending. And the ROI and the conversion there may or may not be what you expect because you’re sitting in a booth. Because hey, you’re just sitting on the corner waiting for inbound to come to you. But when you get the influencer that could very well be at, if we say small, again, air quotes, for a hundred or subscribers or a thousand or whatever, look, that trust is there. We’ve already all discussed that. So one of those potential individuals, could very well lead to that conversion in a sale, which might mean for you as a business, that could be like six figures worth of new gained logos and revenue and income. So that’s just one. But when you fan that out to the 100s, the 1000s, the one millions, that’s really cool. 

So the second thing I’d sprinkle in on that and just understanding and knowing, it’s not always about the size of that audience kind of count for the influencer. The influencers, if they’re matured enough and sort of this work and this content creation that they do, they know that too. And I think that ties well into kind of Michelle’s nugget on a budget, knowing what’s appropriate for the work that you all do together. But let me dovetail into some other quick thing. We were talking a lot earlier about, some of the best that we can get for these influencers are the folks that are still practitioners, that are doing this for their day job. They’re the subject matter experts.

So let me squeeze into, I’m sorry, I’m rambling. I know I’m verbose, but this is probably the biggest thing. We were talking about, look, that influencer is a person. It’s not this big cog machine, well-oiled process and team of folks. And if they’re still working their job to be a part of this thing, you gotta have, yeah, that trust and creative control. But a big thing is the understanding. Vacation keeps up in the way.  things that tie them one way or the other. So.

I keep falling on that word, but it is a partnership through and through, and it’s person to person. So you can maximize that and make that the best thing, but go in with grace. It’s the best I think we could all do.

Peter Jacobs:

And that wraps up our special series on cyber influencer marketing and PR. Many thanks to John Hammond, Robin Campbell-Burt, and Michelle Schafer for a great conversation. And thank you for joining us. To download your copy of the Merritt Group Code Red Cyber Influencer Survey Report, click on the link on this episode’s show notes page. 

Lay of the Brand is brought to you by Merritt Group, an integrated strategic communications firm that blends the best of PR, marketing, and creative to help our clients tell their stories and build business.

Got a topic suggestion or want to share feedback? Subscribe to Lay of the Brand on your preferred podcast platform and leave us a review. And please spread the word and tell your friends and colleagues to tune in as well. To learn more about Merritt Group and the show, check out layofthebrand.com.