Podcast

Peter Jacobs 

Welcome to Lay of the Brand, where we talk with the experts on tech marketing, creative, PR to learn what’s new, what’s working, and what’s next. I’m Peter Jacobs with Merritt Group. We’ve got a special event this time around, a two-part series on a topic that’s dominating brand conversations, cybersecurity influencer marketing and PR. And that’s why we’re talking with not one, but three experts. Michelle Schafer, a Merritt Group partner who heads the agency’s security practice. Robin Campbell-Burt, the CEO of Merritt Group’s global PR agency partner, Code Red Communications, and John Hammond, Principal Security Researcher at Huntress and content creator and founder of Just Hacking Training, and also one of the top influencers in cybersecurity. In part one, we’re looking not only at how influencer marketing fits into an overall strategy, but also how to find and cultivate influencer relationships that can get you the results you need. Let’s jump right in.

Where does influencer marketing actually fit in a security outreach strategy? Why are we talking about this in the first place?

Robin 

I can step in on that. Sure, I’ll get the ball rolling.I think a lot of cybersecurity leaders and practitioners decide whether a vendor is credible and can be trusted based on who else has decided that vendor is credible and can be trusted. And a key area they look to is either journalists, analysts, and to a much growing degree today, influencers. And that’s really the core of why influencers are so important and the power that they have across the market.

Peter Jacobs 

Michelle, what do you think?

Michelle Schafer 

Yeah. I’ll jump in here too. I do think in general, the media landscape has changed so much in the 22 years that I’ve been at Merritt Group. And, you know, the traditional ways of getting media coverage are tougher with 4,000 plus security vendors. There’s just so much noise in the market that we have to be thinking differently to help these brands and these companies stand out. And I’m seeing, you know, influencer marketing come up in every conversation with marketing teams. They’re all interested in it, they’re excited about it, and they want to know how it can really help their brand with that trust and that awesome person. That is big, all the marketing teams. And I really think that that’s an area that, you know, brands need marketing come up in every conversation with marketing teams. They’re all interested in it. They’re excited about it. And they want to know how it can really help their brand, you know, with that trust and that authenticity factor. And that is big, authenticity. And I really think that that’s an area that, you know, brands need to focuson from here onward.

Peter Jacobs

And John, as both a security researcher and an influencer yourself, what’s your perspective on this?

John Hammond 

Ooh, well, hey, thank you all so much for letting me join the conversation here. ⁓ but you’re right. Hey, I tried to be as best I can. Well, I guess practitioner first and sort of influencer second, but I know that weans and wanes in one direction, maybe sometimes more than the other. ⁓ but I think everything that everyone has already stated is just absolutely right. It’s, Hey, where are even consumers, the end users getting their news? Where are they getting their info? Where are they getting a little bit more of their education, their training, or can they, I don’t know, hear from not to say experts, but subject matter experts all the time in our community, in our industry? And turns out, hey, that’s where a lot of other influencers still tend to be chatting and chirping along.

Peter Jacobs 

And Michelle, you said that, to follow up on what John just said, you said that you’re hearing influencers come up in every conversation. So I want to ask all of you, how do you know that it’s appropriate for brand marketers? Just because somebody’s interested in doing it, how do you know that it’s right for brand marketing and PR?

Michelle Schafer 

I feel like you need to try it out, right? Don’t be afraid of influencer marketing. You know, if you haven’t done it yet, I think you should, you know, think about a campaign, but more importantly, it’s picking the right influencer that really is aligned with your brand and the message and the story that you want to get out. Brand fit is first and foremost, the most important factor here. I think.

When you’re doing your research, when you’re thinking about developing a campaign in a program, and that’s where we come in and we spend a lot of time with our clients trying to ensure that any influencers we recommend are the right fit, that their background matches up. But I do think as a broader marketing strategy, we’re just seeing it really come to fruition and B2B tech in general. And cybersecurity has really latched onto it a lot, I’d say in the last three to five years.

Robin 

I think I’ll just pick up on that.

There’s two points on this I think I’d like to make. One is we’ve done our own research. So we’ve spoken with through an independent market research company, 200 cybersecurity leaders, decision makers. And of that 67 % told us that they find content from influencers helpful to learn about new industry trends and what’s going on. And that 59 % of them said they’re also highly likely to consult with influencers and their content when researching a new solution or technology. So we’ve got some data from that perspective of what the market is telling us. And I think the other thing is the logic is overwhelming. People like John Hammond, I think was it 2 million subscribers on YouTube? It’s phenomenal. But that is a group of people who have followed you, who take your worldview and agree with it and are engaged with it. And they’re actively seeking out your content on a weekly basis.

No matter how good a vendor’s marketing is, nobody is looking for their content and waiting for that email to just bounce in right after Black Hat or RSA. That doesn’t happen. So by working with an influencer, actually get, you’re working with that trust, you’re working with that credibility. And I look at some of the data, like the open rates of emails from emails that come through the subscriber list that you have and others as well is over 50%. Like I could, and in my wildest dreams,

I get from that from my pitiful efforts at HubSpot marketing for people to work with me? It just doesn’t happen. So you actually, do you get, you’re kind of buying into that credibility, buying into that trust. But I think also influences are not, that it’s their authentic voice that’s talking to this as well. It’s not a like, just repeat the messages that are scripted out. There’s actually a genuine authenticity there as well.

Peter Jacobs

I want to follow up on what you just mentioned, Robin. Merritt Group and Code Red together produced this report based on a survey of IT practitioners across the US and the UK. And the research found that 91 % of security leaders are already engaging with influencer content. So that begs the question, does that mean that trust is shifting from the media to influencers?

Michelle Schafer 

I can jump in on this one. So I think there’s always going to be a place for traditional media. Absolutely. The challenge is, again, we’re dealing with the noisy market in cybersecurity. And even if a reporter wants to cover your news, they simply can’t because of newsroom shrinking, just a lot of the publications, the downsizing, they’re shifting to more of contributed content and bylines.

It’s just this changing media landscape that I mentioned before. So I do think, you know, this shift is really helping marketers tell their stories in new ways. And I do think, you know, from our report, you know, that found 57 % of IT security leaders are still turning to traditional media sources. You know, it does validate, it’s still very relevant. You still need to get that earned media but we also have to be just thinking differently about other ways to go to market.

Robin 

I think the market’s fragmenting a little bit. I was talking to some people earlier today about this and there’s a growing number of freelancers. So traditional media, especially the trade media, rely more and more on freelance journalists. So they’re operating as their own entity, sometimes writing, taking, you know, gigs from publications. Those journalists are also taking gigs from, public relations or direct from vendors who are commissioning them to do particular pieces of writing.

So they’re becoming much more individualistic. And my question is often, when does a freelance journalist become an influencer? When is their personal brand becoming bigger than that of the publications and the companies who they’re working for? So I think there’s a shift happening there. And then I think with the likes of John Hammond and other influencers, you’re seeing the frontline workers who actually understand cybersecurity on a day-to-day basis, they’ve now got access to tools so they could become their own voice and have their own brand and come into and become individuals in the industry. And then also thirdly, we’re seeing that from analysts. So we’re seeing people who were, you know, Gartner for life as an analyst and now able to set themselves up as their own entity. People like Francis Oden, for example, always comes to mind and who can be commissioned and work with vendors as well. So I see the industry, the market was once we were talking to news publications and analyst houses.

Now we’re talking to individuals who’ve got an established reputation and track record in the industry. So that’s why we’re shifting and Michelle and I working very closely together, Merritt Group and Code Red across the world in actually how we approach these people, how we approach these relationships and how we secure that third party validation for our clients.

Peter Jacobs 

John, from your perspective as both a practitioner and an influencer, what’s your take on the whole media versus influencer balance?

John Hammond 

I think it’s, I don’t know, a really interesting thing because you all had mentioned and we’re kind of discussing how ultimately this gets to a relationship with an influencer may be very different than maybe a person’s relationship with the company or with the business or with some other organization. And that’s funny. I feel like it boils down to just sort of that human to human interaction. Like you all kept talking about how it’s ⁓ the creator, the influencer is authentic, is genuine. And when you have that influencer or whatever personality on YouTube or Twitch or LinkedIn or whatever online persona, oftentimes it’s a person. ⁓ And that can be a lot more approachable than, maybe a big stuffy brand and you’ve got, you know, a corporate kind of wall around it because it’s a bigger entity. But when a person is the one saying, hey, look at this, hey, let me show you something. Hey, I want to tell you and teach you about this cool thing. It’s a lot more inviting and a lot more approachable to think, yeah, that greater audience, that greater potential market, total addressable market. And you know, folks tuning in.

Peter Jacobs 

Well, how are security practitioners like yourself finding other influencers to follow?

John Hammond 

Ooh, that’s a good question. feel like, it’s a lot of times, you know, friends, it’s funny, we’re almost coworkers in a sense, right? Other individuals that are sharing videos or content again on YouTube or Twitch, like I’ll still tune into what they’re up to. What are they doing? What are they diving into and showcasing? And then that’s, guess, part of the community. That’s part of the industry.

Peter Jacobs 

Michelle, what are you hearing about how people are finding influencers to follow?

Michelle Schafer 

Well, John just touched on a very important point, community, right? The cybersecurity community, it may be very big, much bigger than when I started a long time ago, but people trust each other. And I do feel like that point that John made about human to human interaction, that really helps build that trust, authenticity. And when you have these newsletters, let’s say for example, that have

practitioners putting out content, it just becomes, you know, more trustworthy, more authentic, more believable. And I feel like that shift is just really on the rise right now. We’re seeing so much of it. But in terms of finding those influencers, to my point earlier, you know, it has to be a brand fit. You know, you have to find the folks that have the audience that is going to make sense for you.

Peter Jacobs 

What’s your perspective, Robin? What are you seeing?

Robin

Yeah, I agree with everything everyone’s just said. Looking at a UK perspective compared to the US, I think the US market is more mature in terms of influencers and what’s going on. Like lot of the work we’re doing with influencer relations, gravitates towards who are the names covering the US market. There are some people starting up in the UK, but I think that they’re about three or four years behind, if I use that word, the US market. So what we’re doing a lot of is actually building actually face-to-face human networks here in London. And then we want to also build out the network across the influencer network we have into other languages. like, who’s the leading influencer on cybersecurity in Germany in the German language? This is a big question that isn’t easily answered at the moment and that we need to expand into yet. So I think from a European and British perspective, we’re still at an earlier stage. The work we’re doing has been with US influencers because even though you’re US based, there is still an international following for campaigns as well. One question I was going to ask on the trust aspect to John actually, one thing that came into my mind. You have a day job, you have a job working with Huntress and I’m really intrigued by vendors, are they being brave? Is there a level of courageousness to say, actually, yeah, sure, you can go ahead and follow your nose in what you want to talk about. Because this is a growing trend. was at a info security year recently, and there’s people who are on the stands there. Yeah, I want to become an influencer. I’ve started doing my own content online. And you’re like, I feel like you’re leading the charge for a lot of people who working at vendors who want to become a brand in their own right and grow. is this something vendors should be allowing? Or how do they do that? And perhaps you could talk to some of your personal challenges if there were any in your journey.

John Hammond

Ooh, well, thank you so much. Yeah. And I appreciate it. I don’t know if it’s, Hey, maybe falling down the rabbit hole too much for me to tell some of the personal aspect or a origin story right now. Look, I honestly really believe if, if an organization or a company or business can, sort of have an influencer, available like on, to say in their pocket, but you know, part of the team, part of the bench. I think it’s an awesome thing because they’re like a liaison, they’re like a representative, they’re an ambassador, right? They’re a brand ambassador for kind of what that team can do. And they get to show it off, they get to put it on a podium and put it in the spotlight. ⁓ I’m grateful, me especially, for Huntress, my day job, right? Who’s always really been a big cheerleader for the stuff that I’m up to. And I think I am maybe especially fortunate because a lot of the work that I started to do online on YouTube truthfully came years before I got started at Huntress. And I think that’s maybe part of the ease and maybe why that became a simple solution. Cause they came to me and we were talking about, okay, hey, employment, know, getting the party started. But they said, John, you keep doing what you’re doing, you know, Hey, you keep sharing content education on YouTube because I know, look, that’s elevating the whole industry, the whole community. And you’re doing the mission by doing that. It doesn’t always have to end up being a big sales or ROI or something that leads to conversions and new trials and logos. But oftentimes it’s that awareness. It’s that brand awareness and still just education that hey, influencer is certainly going to help with.

Michelle Schafer 

And speaking as your former PR representative, full transparency, Merritt Group did work with Huntress for four years. And when John came on board as our kind of subject matter expert, threat researcher, it really did help our lives, a lot as we were going out there and pitching an expert on all the threats that you and Kyle and the team were finding, there was so much already built in trust with the media that it was kind of, you know, a perfect PR person’s dream to be able to work with you ⁓ because I do think, again, you would already have this community trust already built before you even got to Huntress. So being able to put you out there as our subject matter expert really helped with driving those media results. So it worked out well.

Peter Jacobs

Well, that kind of leads me into that bigger question of what makes an influencer influential? So John, you were talking about the things that Huntress allows you to do. And I’m sure this is the case at other organizations where people have become very well known as educators and therefore becoming influencers. But tell me a little bit more about your personal journey, how you evolved from that practitioner to an educator and an influencer. Was this a conscious decision?

John Hammond 

Yeah. And thank you again and again for asking. These are some of my favorite things to kind of deep dive into. ⁓ I don’t know if I have cracked the code right on, what makes such an, effective influencer, but maybe, coming from the creator perspective years build up before it’s Hey, I’ve always wanted to try to show, not just tell. I think that’s been kind of the most really profound way of being able to teach, being able to introduce folks to new topics and “Hey, get everyone kind of engaged.” That has been something where like, look, want to, I want to put this in front of you and let you see how it all works, how it comes to life, why it works that way, et cetera, and that’s, think build up that community, that starting ground for, being able to do this more with content, creating and influencer work. and then, yeah, that does lend itself to maybe the start of our conversation when we were wondering, how did these all fit together? Again, you’ve got someone that’s willing to show, showcase, show their work, show what they’re up to, show what they’re doing, show what’s happening in the industry. ⁓ and that’s how it all comes together.

Peter Jacobs 

So from the marketing and PR perspective, Robin and Michelle, what are you looking for in an influencer? Robin?

Robin 

I would say there’s a of a spectrum of influencers. You can get 100 % content creators that aren’t connected to the front lines anymore. And you’ve got people who are working day in, day out on the front line still either with a vendor currently or as a consultant. And then this is almost a passion project on the side. And what we’re really interested in influencers, I think what really builds the and credibility in them is that they’re still working on the front lines.

And I think that is what builds a really successful campaign. And I would always recommend, advise, I’ll give preference to those people over someone who say, I’m just 100 % content creator. I think for the main reason is that they’re bringing a real voice to that conversation. What’s so important that makes influencers so powerful is they’ve got their own voice, their own experience they’re bringing to bear on one of our clients and in the collaboration that happens. That’s what I really, really look for. think secondly, there is an element about numbers. It doesn’t have to be high, but the audience has to be very, very clear and a very specific audience that we look for depending on the vendor. But also, have they got a bit of clout in terms of say LinkedIn or ⁓ email subscribers? think it’s a really good indication of a personal following. Other social media metrics are, you know, they may not be as committed to that person, but I think if you sign up to their newsletter, then you are, I think you have deeper, a deeper connection with that influencer. So those are some of the things I kind of look for, I would say.

Peter Jacobs

What about you, Michelle?

Michelle Schafer 

Yeah, it’s funny. You know, I’ve seen sort of the evolution of the cyber influencer market, if you will, for a long time. you know, going back to the early days, a lot of these quote unquote influencers started out on the speaking circuit. They were getting accepted at talks that, you know, Black Hat and Defcon, and that was such a great pedestal for so many folks to really launch their careers. You know, if you were a top threat researcher and you had something important to show the security community to educate them, that really put you in kind of the limelight, which was really amazing. And then those folks kind of plateaued from, ⁓ you know, being a speaker and they rose above to do, you know, kind of some of their own content, bloggers, if you will. We had a huge security bloggers community. If you think about it today, they’re still there. There’s the security bloggers meetup, which is Alan Schimmel’s event that he does every year at RSA.

And then people started creating their own podcasts and now the newsletter. So it has been an interesting evolution to see kind of the early guard of these influential speakers, you know, really become content creators. And back to my earlier point, I think it’s about what audience do they have? What is their specialty? You know, are they an expert in application security? Are they an expert in mobile security? You know, are they looking at, you know, specific threat profiles?

So it’s really figuring out, you know, if you’re a brand and you want to get out there, who you want to align to in terms of brand fit and the audience that you want to reach. And I do think, you know, each of these influencers, they have their own specialized media kits. They have their own packages. So taking the time to really look through those packages and thinking about what offering makes the most sense for your goals and your needs in terms of the marketing.

Robin 

And I do think, know, you can use influencers that have their own specialized media kits, they have their own packages. So, taking the time to really look through those packages and thinking about what offering makes the most sense for your goals and your needs.

Peter Jacobs 

John, then as an influencer, what are you looking for in brands that you plan to work with?

John Hammond 

To be honest, I think it again boils down to that word trust. Hey, it’s kind of just that understanding of the content creator knows what they’re doing, right? They know their audience, they know the material, they know how they present themselves, what they deliver on, how it’s done. So when you, as a brand or organization, are still willing to let the creator have their creative control,

Hey, they’ll knock it out of the park. You know, it could be a home run and it’s still something that will resonate with their audience. Cause it’s not tampered with or ⁓ structured in a way that was sort of prescribed and a regimented thing: read the script, get this ad out and about the way that they cookie cutter put it. you have a lot of flexibility when you get to do this as a content creator and influencer. So, hey, letting them run with it. Have that creative canvas is probably the best way for us all to win.

So I’m always especially grateful and appreciative when you the organizations and companies I work with say, John, you do your thing. Here’s some of our media kits. Here’s some of our assets to let you get running. But run, run hard and fast the way you want.

Peter Jacobs 

But it’s really crucial to avoid the appearance of selling rather than informing. So where are the guardrails and how do you establish them?

John Hammond 

Totally. I’m going to be honest, that’s a, that’s a tough nut to crack. think it is still always a balancing act on, still getting, yeah, the, that conversion, the trials, the logos, anything that you can for prospects and the ROI and of a influencer marketing work, but still making it that authentic, genuine thing, not being too salesy or over commercialized. I’ve found truthfully when you can work into a campaign or something that the viewers, the attendees, the newsletter recipients, every folks tuning in, if they can play with it, if they can get access, if they can, spin up a free trial or ⁓ look at some research or work or tune into some webinar snippet, like all those things, those are at least getting in front of a gate or a price tag kind of wall that might often be out in front.

So whatever we can do to, hey, let folks join in, in a free and accessible way. That is some really awesome exposure and usually much, much more positively received than, you know, form fill, et cetera. Here’s the big wall entry price tag.

Peter Jacobs 

Well, let me then ask Robin and Michelle, from your perspective, how do you avoid the appearance of selling?

Robin 

Well, I was going to, I was almost going to ask another question of John on this, because it’s something that plays on my mind. And I think, you know, if you look at wider consumer, consumer influences, that they grew in massive popularity, and then there’s a bit of a backlash against them because it wasn’t always obvious that there was a paid for promotion and there’s a disconnect between the product very often and the influence that there’s a lot been going on there. And one question I have is the influences in the cybersecurity space is still quite early days, but it’s now very… Marketing leaders have noticed that this is a really great channel to start working with. Are you concerned 18 months, two years down the line something like this could come up and are there measures that you and other influences in the industry are doing or could be doing that we need to almost preempt potential issues further down the line?

John Hammond 

If you could help gut check me on if I’m kind of, understanding and processing that the right way.  but I think you’re wondering like, does this get to a point where it’s sort of too much, influencer maybe holding their hand on the stove for a little too long with a lot of the commercial promotion content. Is that right? Well, I think honestly, I’ve, I’ve found that the upper limits and trying to see, okay, where do we push the envelope and then where do we go too far?

And that’s again, those things you do need to be cognizant of both as the brand, the company business and the creator is, ⁓ okay. Are we over saturating a lot of the communications and delivery out there? and it’s been interesting as kind of, you know, the game for me to do this, to, where do we put in place and strategically kind of get a lot of those, not to say sponsored, but oftentimes partnered posts and promotions and ad campaigns, right?

I’ve always found, okay, YouTube seems to be much, much less interested in, yeah, that quick, immediate, showcase a demo or product.  LinkedIn is oftentimes much more receptive to that newsletters or podcasts. There’s a ton of opportunity there because again, folks are tuning in cause they really want to listen and they really want to read and see what’s all about. So you think, okay, what are these platforms? What are the places where I put these that are going to make the most sense and land and work well with the audience.  When you find that issue with a problem child, you’ll see it right away. And that’s okay. It’s quick and easy to adjust and now move forward for the future.

Michelle Schafer 

And I can weigh in here too. I think as marketers, we need to be always thinking about earned, owned, and paid. Those are the three buckets. you know, with the influencers, you know, having, you know, a couple of campaigns running, you know, to a quarter, let’s say, with maybe two different influencers might be a good way to try things out. Again, it’s sort of see what’s working, see if it’s driving, you know, the results, the measurement, the KPIs you’re looking for.

But don’t forget about the other pieces of your program. Ensure that you’re still getting the media coverage, you know, with your PR agency, that they’re driving that forward. Be sure that, you know, you’re putting out really thoughtful, smart content on your blogs and through, you know, your LinkedIn and your social media channels. So finding that balance, I think, is super important as a marketer while you’re working with these influencers.

Robin 

I’d say if you are as a vendor, you’re committed to doing public relations as a way to market. You have to have influence as part of that program. It’s a non-negotiable as far as I’m concerned. There’s an unparalleled level of connection with the audience and it blends seamlessly with broader general media relations activity that we do day in day out with journalists.

Peter Jacobs

And that’s part one of our special series. Many thanks to John Hammond, Robin Campbell-Burt, and Michelle Schafer for a great conversation. 

Stay tuned for part two in the series, where we get into measuring your success with influencers, what works and what doesn’t, and our guests’ hottest tips. 

Lay of the Brand is brought to you by Merritt Group, an integrated strategic communications firm that blends the best of PR, marketing and creative to help our clients tell their stories and build business. Got a topic suggestion or want to share feedback? Subscribe to Lay of the Brand on your preferred podcast platform and leave us a review. And please spread the word and tell your friends and colleagues to tune in as well. To learn more about Merritt Group and the show, check out Lay of the Brand.com.